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25 November 2015 @ 01:01 pm
Civil War  
For those of you who haven't seen it yet:

My tumblr flist exploded last night with this release. I watched it and instantly began bawling. Seriously.

Look. It's a complicated issue. There's so much to discuss. How the "so was I" comment actually makes no sense because honestly, Steve and Tony are civil to each other in MCU on a good day and the rest of the time they're bickering and posturing and Steve's all "your dad was great and you suck" which just REALLY bugs me because it's so fucking unfair to Tony.

Honestly, I feel like Howard Stark is the one good thing about MCU (okay and Peggy Carter) because I like that Tony wasn't abused as a child, just had a dad that was absent (absent=/=good, but better than comics!Howard by a MILLION). But it really pisses me off that he is then used to attack Tony.

How MCU has deliberately positioned Tony Stark as being treated like a villain so fanboys can feel good about supporting a pro-jingoistic interpretation of Captain American fans while still loving Iron Man's suits and seeming playboy ways. How the average person seeing these movies has little nuanced interpretation of the comics. How the Captain America movie is Civil War rather than an Avengers movie which instantly puts most people in Cap's corner.

How people are ignoring the implications that if Tony were on the run or defending a friend, Cap would be chasing after him and people would be rooting him on to (still) take down Tony because: FUCK YEAH CAP. (It's amazing the amount of delusion many people have: Cap is a seeming fanboys dream, skinny and weak transformed into a powerful man who gets to beat people up. But they ignore that he isn't pro-America at the expense of everything else, that he has morals and an honor code. They take the weakling into an alpha male and Tony's "playboy" ways and money and ignore the things that make these men nuanced.) Both sides to registration have points. But when it comes to Captain America fighting for ONE man, it's time to examine that viewpoint critically. If Steve took off the mantle of Cap and became Nomad or simply fought as himself, I'd be more forgiving.

And honestly, if I hadn't already been converted to StevexTony via the comics, I probably would be in love with StevexBucky. I mean, in a way, I am. I LOVE past!StevexBucky (as I also love StevexPeggy and even StevexHoward because Steve is just so shippable with all the people in Cap 1/Agent Carter). I love their friendship. I get all the canon-based reasons for shipping them. And so, I am happy for all the Stucky shippers who get to add to their shipper vaults.

But. I cannot watch that ending scene of the trailer and be happy that "Steve and Bucky are sharing the shield!" because they are teaming up against another hero, not a villain. They are teamed up against TONY. Where are the rest of their teams? Who's going to help Tony? While Tony is capable of defending himself (honestly, one repulsar beam would kill Bucky instantly), it's still an unfair fight and I don't understand the purpose. Unless Tony is being controlled by someone else, there is no reason for it. At least in the comics it was a one on one fight.

With phrases like the one above ("sharing the shield!"), even the Stucky fans who aren't anti-Tony explicitly are coming across that way and I am not able to handle it. It's amazing how defensive I am for a fake person. But I have had to savior Stucky on my tumblr because I can't handle the posts right now. There's also a significant number of posts using the fact that MCU sucks and hasn't written a decent version of the most iconic friendship in MCU to laugh at Tony's "so was I" line as idiotic and irrational. A lot of posts are flat out happy for the idea that Tony will get killed. Some are suggesting that Bucky is going after Tony so hard in the trailer because Seve may be dead (or "Dead") at that point. To them I say: TONY STARK IS NOT A VILLAIN. And just, fuck you.

I know I am emotional because of the comics. That I should be able to separate them from MCU. (That I should not feel personally attacked when Steve and Bucky are beating on Tony.) But if you're going to pull from the comics rather than creating original stories, then I am going to bring my expectations and feelings over from the comics. So, yes, I started bawling at Tony's "so was I" because YES, Tony and Steve were friends and it's devastating to me.

It kind of makes me laugh because MCU (and X-Men which are MCU but not) is what got me into the comics, but now the comics keep me from enjoying the MCU. It's amazing how the characterization of these characters has entirely escaped the writers of MCU. They started out strong with IM1&2 (the writing issues of IM2 were plot-based, not characterization IMO) and Cap1 and have just sunk since then. It's like the writers stopped caring about the original canon and just chose the vague main threats and decided to film a lot of action scenes, screw any reference to these established character's actual motivations.

This rant is undoubtedly a bit disjointed. I am honestly so bothered by the whole thing I am not too coherent in my arguments yet.


In conclusion: DEAR MARVEL:

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leoraineleoraine on November 25th, 2015 08:00 pm (UTC)
I can't really comment on anything comic based, because I didn't even read any comic. I don't know what is supposed to happen, or how big friends Tony and Steve are in there. But this whole fight... I don't like it. And while I think the trailer was awesome and captivating, I really, really couldn't watch it again, because of that last part. I want my heroes working together.

Hell, for non comic people, there were only two or three movies where we could see them pairing up and be awesome. And in between those movies a ton of fanfic that built on their friendships. These people were supposed to be living together at some point in the tower! (or is that just fanon? I don't know anymore) And now they are trying to kill each other. Teaming up against each other. While I am really a Hawkeye fan and I enjoy Cap and his banter with Tony, Iron Man was what pulled me into the fandom. I can much more symphatize with Tony, than with Cap's holier than thou attitude (no offense to any Cap fans. I like him. But not when he is beating on Tony). So yeah. Not sure I will be able to watch Cap 3... not until I know how it ends for them beforehand, anyways.
Also, sorry for ranting on your rant post:)
MF Luder: Steve x Tonymf_luder_xf on November 26th, 2015 03:43 am (UTC)
If you're ever curious, and don't want to pick up the comics (though I highly recommend it, even if it's finding a copy to illegally read online), you can always wiki it and get the general synopsis. I'm not sure if you don't want to know, so I won't spoil it specifically.

Yeah, it's pretty upsetting that they haven't focused too much on the "team" aspect. It's like, we glossed over that whole part. At the end of Avengers, Tony is adjusting Stark Tower to Avengers Tower and based on the party scene of AOU, it seems like maybe some of them did live there. But then IM3 and Thor 2 fail to recognize that element. Their actual being a team is left up to our imagination. Hence, it allows people to laugh at the idea that Tony and Steve are friends because 85% of their onscreen interactions are bickering. (I have come across a painful but interesting posts that thought the trailer showed a one-sided friendship on Tony's part, which just, *SOB*.) It's a major flaw of the MCU. We feel way more connected to Nat/Clint's friendship than Steve and Tony whose relationship is THE mainstay of Marvel/Avengers.

And ultimately, we do get this holier than thou impression of Steve which is so strange compared to his comics personality (I guess it is a little more Ultimates!Steve, which is where most of MCU takes its ideas, so maybe not too far off).

Rant away! I have no objections. I enjoy discussion. :D
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MF Luder: Kate Bishopmf_luder_xf on November 25th, 2015 10:10 pm (UTC)
Well, you know why Tony is supporting registration (the accords in CACW) because you've read the comic event. I know you don't like the comic event, but to me, Tony's logic for supporting registration makes total sense (for him). What I don't understand is why this whole "civil war" is over one dude and a Cap movie. I know we're getting a million cameos, but I'd still have preferred it to be an Avengers movie that follows the comics event much closer.
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MF Luder: Peggy Cartermf_luder_xf on November 25th, 2015 10:27 pm (UTC)
It could be a twist but I doubt it? I feel like they're trying to get all the plot points of Civil War (with the addition of Bucky) but none of the characterization. Plot point here being the fight between Tony and Cap where Cap nearly decapitates Tony. I am hard pressed to think of a villain who could move that well in the suit, that they might be fighting instead.
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leoraineleoraine on November 25th, 2015 10:12 pm (UTC)
It's weird, because I can't really imagine Clint going against Nat, esp not on Cap's side. If anything, shouldn't Hawkeye be more in cahoots with the Shield? I am confused, sigh.
MF Luder: Kate Bishopmf_luder_xf on November 25th, 2015 10:17 pm (UTC)
Yeah, I feel like Clint would be on the side of Shield, but I'm not sure Shield will be involved in this movie? However, I think the reason why Clint is on Cap's side is because of the family we saw in AOU. A "registration" (comics: in the movie they're calling them "the accords") would force Clint to reveal his identity and put his family in danger; he obviously went to a lot of effort to keep them hidden from everyone but Nat, so it makes sense he'd want to continue hiding them.
MF Luder: Ms Marvelmf_luder_xf on November 25th, 2015 10:15 pm (UTC)
Clint and Nat make sense to me their "sides" in MCU. Nat exposed herself at the end of CATWS and specifically (paraphrased) states "I thought I was working for the good guys, turns out I just traded in the KGB for Hydra". MCU!Natasha would absolutely be on the "side" of registration and be concerned that a hero's actions would hurt someone. Clint, on the other hand, has his family to protect and would not want to "register" because that would put them in harms way. (I think Clint may take the role Spider-Man plays in the comics...if, again, the whole thing isn't just about Bucky.)

Honestly, the "sides" of this fight make sense, if it's about "registration". My issue is that it appears to be more about Bucky and that I'm super pissed StevexBucky fans are rolling in glee at how Tony is going to die and a villain.
leoraineleoraine on November 25th, 2015 10:26 pm (UTC)
But... Tony can't die here, or can he? I mean, there is still Avengers Infinity wars and they list Tony Stark as a character. Or is it supposed to be taking place before Cap 3?

About Clint... I didn't really think about his family and registration. Would they need to register if they aren't superhumans? Because Hawkeye isn't hiding his identity - anyone can see his face, after all, so it shouldn't really be an issue for him. Still, can't imagine him shooting at Nat, not for this.
MF Luder: Mockingbirdmf_luder_xf on November 25th, 2015 10:32 pm (UTC)
No, I do not believe Tony will die. Some people simply seem to want him to die (probably because they believe he's a villain as MCU often suggests by giving Tony the arcs of other characters - like building Ultron when it was Hank Pym in the comics who creates Ultron's flawed programming).

I suppose the leap would be Hawkeyes an Avenger, not a superhuman. This is part of the problem of turning CW into a Cap MCU movie. In the comics, a rogue (and I believe untrained, young) mutant ends up blowing up a school - this causes the wheels to move for registration - all mutants and superheroes have to register to have accountability. Obviously, with MCU, it could tie into the Inhumans ala SHIELD, although someone else pointed out that technically they have their own nation and the US gov would hold no sway over them - but in MCU, they're a replacement for mutants so I think TPTB of MCU would handwave away the separate nation thing.

And yes, I am definitely struggling to see how the Clint/Nat thing plays out because it IS hard to imagine them on opposite sides. It almost seems like we'll get the Steve vs Tony feel of the comics in Nat vs Clint in the movie. Two people very good friends who stand ideologically opposed and how they handle it.
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MF Luder: Kate Bishopmf_luder_xf on November 25th, 2015 11:02 pm (UTC)
No, Tony won't die. Even if there's no IM4, there's Infinity War. The person who "should" "die" based on the comics, is of course, Steve. That's part of what's fueling the "Tony should die" thing is that maybe Bucky will kill Tony after Steve dies. Honestly, I don't think anyone will die (er, not out of Tony, Steve, and Bucky anyway) because Evans signed on for more movies, too, and Sebastian has like 9 movies he's contracted for.

I have not watched this season of AOS yet, no. I kind of like marathoning that show, now. I'll try to catch up at Christmas time. I know "registration" is going by "the accords" in MCU, and I read regarding CW hat Scarlet Witch ends up hurting people in the beginning of CACW and that spurns on the accords. For now, don't share, though!